CONFESSIONS FROM THE UNDERGROUND
*This interview originally appeared in our November 2024 issue*
Exposure Bucks
The idea for this column came to me a couple years ago, stemming from my experiences interviewing many artists over the better part of the last decade, and enjoying the “real” conversations that organically happened. Each issue, I will connect with a local musician via Zoom and discuss a topic that shines a light on some more taboo, less understood sides of this business we call “underground music”. My first guest is the incredible Caity Gallagher, a Troy-based, Americana-leaning singer/songwriter who performs all across the Capital Region on a regular basis. In this issue, we dive into “exposure bucks” and how musicians are getting better at advocating for themselves, knowing their worth as well as their limits.
[TJ Foster]: First, an explanation on “exposure bucks” for our reader. It's basically underground musician lingo for when a venue or promoter will reach out and offer you a gig that, although they won't pay you for, it'll be “great exposure” for you. So my first question for you is, have you ever deposited exposure bucks into your bank account?
[Caity Gallagher]: (laughs) I have not, unsurprisingly.
[TF]: I'm sure you've been offered plenty of these. What's your biggest pet peeve about that kind of offer?
[CG]: It's tough because there are definitely positives to performing that aren't monetary. The difficulty was, when I decided to do music full time, it made it very hard for me to say yes to things that weren't monetary, because even on top of everything else, when you're a musician, there's no such thing as PTO. You're usually playing nights and weekends, and if you want to take time off to see family and friends or go to other important events in your life, you really have to only accept paid gigs to make it balance out. So, I think the biggest pet peeve is bookers or promoters not understanding that, especially when it comes to full time musicians.
[TF]: What types of situations would you consider acceptable for a non-paying gig?
[CG]: Opening for a bigger or touring act – I think something like that I would do for free if it meant being able to connect with a musician that I could learn from. Things like songwriters rounds where people are going to be there and really pay attention to the writing that I'm doing. To have people really listening and engaging fills my cup in more of an emotional way. So every once in a while, I am happy to do things like that, because I think it takes some of the magic out of it to only take the paid gigs. It's a weird balance and I'm almost contradicting myself right now!
[TF]: How do you usually respond to these exposure-based gig offers?
[CG]: It depends. When I get offered a gig in general, I usually like to start with my general rate. And if it's a new place, I'm happy to compromise at least the first time. Some places want to make sure that you draw before they pay that rate, especially if it's above what their normal budget is. I've had that happen at a couple places and I'm happy to prove that I'll be a competent musician and bring some friends and family out. But then I need the venue to prove that it's going to be a comfortable and enjoyable space to be at, and that they'll be able to pay me what I'm worth. I'm happy to be flexible but it has to be worth it for both parties.
[TF]: Yeah. There’s definitely a give and take there, for sure. How long did it take you to get to the point of knowing your rates – your worth – and really feel comfortable putting them out there?
[CG]: Honestly, only in the past year or two. I started playing paid music gigs in the Capital Region in 2016. I had a full time job at that time, so I was more ready to get out there and play anything, even if it meant making $75 that I had to split between me and my band member(s). Also, I was 24 and I had a lot of energy back then too, so I could go to my full time job, do a bar gig until midnight, and feel fine going to work the next day. Now that I’ve made it my career, I do have to have that confidence in charging what I need to to keep making this work as a job. But yeah, I’d say it took about eight years.
[TF]: One of the things most people don’t think about, or perhaps understand, is how much goes into doing what we do. There was this screenshot floating around social media recently, I’m sure you saw it, but it basically highlighted a band telling a bar what they charge, the bar scoffing at the number, and then the band broke down everything that goes into that fee. Rehearsals, transportation, set up, tear down, the years of lessons and honing your craft... It’s not just the performance itself. I know you play a lot of two, three hour sets. But if you had to average it out, how much time would you say you actually spend on a gig like that?
[CG]: I play mostly around the Capital Region, but I'll go within an hour of the Albany/Troy area pretty regularly. There’s making sure I have all my equipment, getting to the venue, loading and setting up. And then how long did it take me to memorize three hours worth of music, to write [my songs] and learn the covers? I also like to pay attention to what the clientele are enjoying. There's certain places where the country stuff is the most popular, or the ‘90s stuff, and I like to pay attention to who's paying attention to me. If they're clapping for certain songs over other ones, then I'm going to rearrange my set list in the moment to make sure I'm giving the people what they want. So that also means a lot of attentiveness and having enough material that I can switch around. I also have a couple places I play monthly. I don't want to play the same exact two hour set there every month, because that gets boring for the workers! (laughs)
Photo by: Kiki Vassilakis
[TF]: That's an enviable skill, to be able to just switch up what you’re playing based on what the audience is into. I don't think I could do that. That must take a lot of diligence, and more aptly, time, to hone that ability.
[CG]: Thank you. Yeah, I think it's fun to be able to take requests and be flexible like that. But it took three or four years of performing 80 gigs a year to get to that point where I'm comfortable doing it.
[TF]: One of the hardest things for me – and a lot of others I talk to – has always been answering that question “what do you charge?” It’s that constant dilemma of not wanting to overcharge and lose the gig, but not wanting to undercharge and shoot yourself in the foot. How do you grapple with that?
[CG]: I think what's helpful is the openness within the music community that I’ve found. I have a lot of friends and colleagues who I can chat with about the rate that we're worth and make sure that we're charging about the same, if we're in the same space, so that someone isn't charging $100-$200 less and setting a lower standard. It’s being honest with yourself and acknowledging what you're worth. There are a lot of great venue managers and owners that I've chatted with that can only pay about half my rate. I've just had to kindly say that it doesn't work for me, and they're always kind back. It's really hard to say no to a gig for me; I don't want to disappoint people. It took a really long time for me to say, “this is what you're going to charge, and if one venue can't meet that, there's going to be another that can”.
[TF]: It is really hard to say no, because we just love performing. When an opportunity to do so arises, it's tough to turn it down, because it does fill you up. But I love this idea of talking to other artists and making sure no one's undercutting anyone else. I don't think in the past that was really a conversation anyone was comfortable having.
[CG]: I think it's a generational thing too, to be a lot more open about how much we're making, how much we're charging, and just money in general. I think being more open about that is just going to make things easier for everybody.
[TF]: You mentioned to me recently that you’ve noticed artists in our scene seem to be advocating for themselves a lot more when it comes to booking gigs, and turning them down when they don’t make sense. What types of things have you been noticing specifically?
[CG]: I had almost booked this gig – I won't mention the venue, but they had me come and sit down and chat for almost an hour. It was a bit of a patronizing experience, telling me how to promote and stuff. They wanted me to spend money on physical marketing, like printouts and things that I didn't necessarily know if I wanted to do. And I brought this up to a musician friend of mine, and she was like, “don't do it.” And it never even crossed my mind that I could retroactively say, “this isn't going to work for me,” and back out.
[TF]: Why is that so important nowadays?
[CG]: Sometimes it's hard to give yourself permission to take a step back before saying yes or no to something. Especially musicians, I think we tend to be people pleasers, and we want to engage with people. We want to put our stuff out there. So there can be this impulse to immediately say yes to something, or at least not feel comfortable saying no to something. Being able to give yourself a second and take that step back and perhaps change your mind, is not a bad thing. I think it’s important.
[TF]: I found myself in a very similar situation recently. My band got offered this gig that I didn’t think suited us. Three hours of music, and we’re an original band without an arsenal of covers. I thought back to this podcast I had listened to recently, and they were talking about something very similar to this. Instead of saying yes or no to an opportunity right away, they asked themselves a very simple question: “Will I want to do this tomorrow?” And although the show we were offered had a lot of positive things going for it, the answer to that question for me ended up being a really easy no.
[CG]: I've gotten myself in this conundrum a million times, where someone says, “Hey, next April can you play this gig?” Of course, but it's really hard to know what the rest of your life is going to look like that far ahead. It's happened to me once or twice that I've backed out on gigs that I was looking forward to because I was just so mentally and emotionally overwhelmed. I had said yes to them months and months before, but then I looked at where I was at that moment and unfortunately had to say this isn't going to work. That feels so hard to disappoint people, but really listening to yourself and being able to decide that it’s going to benefit you to take the day off more than it would benefit you to push through and perform when you're not feeling like you can.
[TF]: I liken it to any other job – sometimes you need to call out of work, right? And again, to your point, even if the money's there, sometimes you just need to take a beat.
[CG]: Yeah. You really have to make sure your mindset is healthy and you’re taking care of yourself.
[TF]: Rate wise, do you ever adjust what you’re asking based on the show’s circumstances, or even who’s hosting you? A college versus a brewery for example, where the former will have a much bigger budget to work with.
[CG]: The way that I structure my rates are public versus private events. For example, I've had private schools or rehearsal dinners for couples and, because it's going to be a bit more structured, I almost feel a higher responsibility for things like that. Those rates are going to be a lot higher than background music at a bar, right? I'm going to be thinking more about what I'm wearing, about the set list – I usually take requests in advance for things like that. I'm happy to do emcee duties for things like that, too. So that just makes it so that my rates are higher. Also, for bigger corporations, I'm a lot less flexible than say, this new bar that just opened up, and it's a husband and wife that owns it, their first time in business. For smaller places that are privately owned, I'm more happy to say, “Yeah, let's try this out.”
[TF]: I so appreciate you taking the time to do this – it’s really good to see you! I just have one final question here, and that is what advice would you give on this topic to a performer or band just starting out and trying to find gigs?
[CG]: Never do anything that's going to make you feel uncomfortable or undervalued, but definitely recognize that starting out, you can't say, “I want $200 an hour,” you know? It's such a balance of, “Am I getting what I'm worth and what I deserve?” and “Am I putting myself out there enough to get to a point where I deserve this rate?” I've probably said yes to almost every venue that's reached out once, and if it's something where the clientele makes me feel uncomfortable, or maybe it's just too far of a drive, I most likely will not be returning. But try it once, pay attention to how you feel, and don't do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or undervalued. That would be my advice.
